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	<title>Comments on: The Scapegoat, chapter 10</title>
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	<link>http://ldsherm.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/the-scapegoat-chapter-10/</link>
	<description>Discussion of hermeneutics, esp. as it pertains to LDS scripture</description>
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		<title>By: joshua madson</title>
		<link>http://ldsherm.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/the-scapegoat-chapter-10/#comment-283</link>
		<dc:creator>joshua madson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 02:09:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Yes I see what you mean. From our perspective, Christ being innocent and willing are necessary for the &quot;Atonement&quot; effect. I think the resurrection plays into this as well. Making sure we know this was an innocent victim whom God approves and sides with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes I see what you mean. From our perspective, Christ being innocent and willing are necessary for the &#8220;Atonement&#8221; effect. I think the resurrection plays into this as well. Making sure we know this was an innocent victim whom God approves and sides with.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert C.</title>
		<link>http://ldsherm.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/the-scapegoat-chapter-10/#comment-282</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2007 18:40:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Joshua, I&#039;m entirely wrapped up in my own thoughts here, not Girard&#039;s, with a sort of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theopedia.com/Moral_Influence_theory&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Moral Influence theory&lt;/a&gt; of atonement in mind: if we come to recognize that the victim is innocent, then it humbles us much more radically than a guilty victim would.

A quick Google search turned up this quote that gets at the kind of thought I was trying to think (from &lt;a href=&quot;http://is-there-a-meaning-in-this-blog.blogspot.com/2007/07/part-ii-hanse-boersma-violence.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;---I have no idea if this is a misappropriation of Girard or not...):

&lt;blockquote&gt;Boersma maintains that the subjective dimension unique to the moral influence model secures it as ‘an indispensable anchor for the hospitality of God’ – God’s hospitality takes the human response seriously, persuading rather than violently forcing people to love him by the example of Christ (p. 132).

Boersma perceives René Girard’s influential theory of mimetic violence and the death of Jesus to fall within the moral influence category. Against a traditional Abelardian understanding, rather than display God’s love, Christ’s death exposes and hence nullifies mimetic violence within our culture.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joshua, I&#8217;m entirely wrapped up in my own thoughts here, not Girard&#8217;s, with a sort of <a href="http://www.theopedia.com/Moral_Influence_theory" rel="nofollow">Moral Influence theory</a> of atonement in mind: if we come to recognize that the victim is innocent, then it humbles us much more radically than a guilty victim would.</p>
<p>A quick Google search turned up this quote that gets at the kind of thought I was trying to think (from <a href="http://is-there-a-meaning-in-this-blog.blogspot.com/2007/07/part-ii-hanse-boersma-violence.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>&#8212;I have no idea if this is a misappropriation of Girard or not&#8230;):</p>
<blockquote><p>Boersma maintains that the subjective dimension unique to the moral influence model secures it as ‘an indispensable anchor for the hospitality of God’ – God’s hospitality takes the human response seriously, persuading rather than violently forcing people to love him by the example of Christ (p. 132).</p>
<p>Boersma perceives René Girard’s influential theory of mimetic violence and the death of Jesus to fall within the moral influence category. Against a traditional Abelardian understanding, rather than display God’s love, Christ’s death exposes and hence nullifies mimetic violence within our culture.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: joshua madson</title>
		<link>http://ldsherm.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/the-scapegoat-chapter-10/#comment-281</link>
		<dc:creator>joshua madson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2007 01:11:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ldsherm.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/the-scapegoat-chapter-10/#comment-281</guid>
		<description>Robert C,

why do you feel that scapegoating is more effective if the victim is innocent or even more so if the victim is willing. It seems to me a large part of Girard&#039;s argument is that we make up lies about the victim in order to justify our scapegoating. In other words it seems that the scapegoat need represent the ills being expiated. Part of the reason Christ was accused of crimes, both religious and national, is that he would thereby make a better scapegoat and bring unity whereas in the alternative the people would have to be introspective and change, perhaps even follow the sermon on the mount, or at least this is how I understand Girard&#039;s approach. I think he would argue Christ&#039;s innocence and resurrection undermined the scapegoat phenomenon in that the people killed an innocent and willing victim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert C,</p>
<p>why do you feel that scapegoating is more effective if the victim is innocent or even more so if the victim is willing. It seems to me a large part of Girard&#8217;s argument is that we make up lies about the victim in order to justify our scapegoating. In other words it seems that the scapegoat need represent the ills being expiated. Part of the reason Christ was accused of crimes, both religious and national, is that he would thereby make a better scapegoat and bring unity whereas in the alternative the people would have to be introspective and change, perhaps even follow the sermon on the mount, or at least this is how I understand Girard&#8217;s approach. I think he would argue Christ&#8217;s innocence and resurrection undermined the scapegoat phenomenon in that the people killed an innocent and willing victim.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert C.</title>
		<link>http://ldsherm.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/the-scapegoat-chapter-10/#comment-279</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:43:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ldsherm.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/the-scapegoat-chapter-10/#comment-279</guid>
		<description>Joe, I&#039;m not sure what&#039;s unsettling you, but let me use your expression as an excuse to think once again my motivating interest in Girard which is to think theologically about atonement and violence.  The development that seems most interesting in Girard&#039;s thought to me is this notion of euphoria that comes from the sins of a community being released onto a scapegoat---and it seems this release is more effective if the scapegoat is &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; guilty (and even more effective if the scapegoat is willingly sacrificed).  So, I&#039;m not sure if this is something better addressed directly via Lacan, but I&#039;m also quite interested in this Lacan-Girard intersection: what is it, esp. from a psycho-analytic perspective, that makes the Atonement psychologically and spiritually effective?  And is it vicarious suffering, which is innocent and willing, in general that is at work here, or is there something more specific about Christ&#039;s Atonement suffering that calls on a different mechanism at work?  Or should be rethinking Christ&#039;s Atonement in an entirely different way?  I&#039;ll also confess that part of my initial interest in Girard was simply that he is thinking about atonement in a non-penal-substitutionary way, which is a good way to shake up my traditionally-based thinking and to unearth my hidden presuppositions about all of this, if nothing else....

(I&#039;m hoping to do some Girard reading this week after which I might actually have a substantive comment to make!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe, I&#8217;m not sure what&#8217;s unsettling you, but let me use your expression as an excuse to think once again my motivating interest in Girard which is to think theologically about atonement and violence.  The development that seems most interesting in Girard&#8217;s thought to me is this notion of euphoria that comes from the sins of a community being released onto a scapegoat&#8212;and it seems this release is more effective if the scapegoat is <i>not</i> guilty (and even more effective if the scapegoat is willingly sacrificed).  So, I&#8217;m not sure if this is something better addressed directly via Lacan, but I&#8217;m also quite interested in this Lacan-Girard intersection: what is it, esp. from a psycho-analytic perspective, that makes the Atonement psychologically and spiritually effective?  And is it vicarious suffering, which is innocent and willing, in general that is at work here, or is there something more specific about Christ&#8217;s Atonement suffering that calls on a different mechanism at work?  Or should be rethinking Christ&#8217;s Atonement in an entirely different way?  I&#8217;ll also confess that part of my initial interest in Girard was simply that he is thinking about atonement in a non-penal-substitutionary way, which is a good way to shake up my traditionally-based thinking and to unearth my hidden presuppositions about all of this, if nothing else&#8230;.</p>
<p>(I&#8217;m hoping to do some Girard reading this week after which I might actually have a substantive comment to make!)</p>
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		<title>By: joshua madson</title>
		<link>http://ldsherm.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/the-scapegoat-chapter-10/#comment-277</link>
		<dc:creator>joshua madson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 07:47:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ldsherm.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/the-scapegoat-chapter-10/#comment-277</guid>
		<description>following along as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>following along as well.</p>
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		<title>By: cherylem</title>
		<link>http://ldsherm.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/the-scapegoat-chapter-10/#comment-276</link>
		<dc:creator>cherylem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 23:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Just letting you know I&#039;m reading along with you, Joe. Sorry not to converse more. But please, keep it going.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just letting you know I&#8217;m reading along with you, Joe. Sorry not to converse more. But please, keep it going.</p>
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